Ship Simulator
English forum => Ship Simulator 2008 => Topic started by: almack on November 21, 2007, 05:27:21
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Smaller vessels less than 24 meters with twin engines DO turn on the spot when one engine is in reverse and the other is in forward and they are idling. I have run many vessels and know this. Engines control the direction of a boat during docking and the rudders are never used. I suspect the program is treating the smaller vessels the same as the larger ships when it comes to twin engines and momentum. This removes much of the control when arriving or leaving a dock. When the vessel is coasting the rudders should still turn the vessel but in the simulator they seem to stop after power is removed.
Also is appears the buoys do not follow the rule "red right return from the ocean. When coming into a harbor the red buoys are on the left and they should be on the right. I thought this rule was international.
I do love this program and would like to see it expanded up into the great lakes with some great lake ships. Keep up the great work
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Also is appears the buoys do not follow the rule "red right return from the ocean. When coming into a harbor the red buoys are on the left and they should be on the right. I thought this rule was international.
Hi almack,
in fact there are different rules in different areas of the world for bouys.The vessels behaviour will be improved step by step. In my opinion a few things are much better now than before and the developers are working hard to meet our expectations.
Cheers from the other side of the real great lake ;)
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Hello Almack,
There are in fact TWO systems of International buoyage. IN USA & (I think) Canada they use IALA-B system where the red buoys are on the Starboard side of the channel when coming in from sea. In Europe and most of the rest of the world they use IALA-A system where the buoys are reversed. i.e. Green on the starboard side when approaching from sea. SO in fact V-Step is perfectly correct. ;D. As Bottman says it depends on where you are. :P It's all done to make life difficult for seafarers. ::) One reminder we used to use years ago in Uk was:- "There is no red port (WINE) left". Go to:- www.sailtrain.co.uk/Buoyage/lateralmarks.htm Which shows it all far better than I can ::).
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I do love this program and would like to see it expanded up into the great lakes with some great lake ships. Keep up the great work
The Great Lakes as area would be nice indeed. I myself proposed to add the "Edward L. Ryerson" as ship to the sim.
Ofcourse other Lakers would be nice to, for instance the "Calumet", who made her last trip, and is getting scrapped in the very near future. :( Or the Big Fitz (Edmund Fitzgerald) who sunk in the early '70's. ('73 i beleive?)
Regards,
Ed
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Hi Almack
On this side of the pond, we use US Inland Rules for buoyage. That is not an International standard.
In the Solent, for instance the red buoys are to port when going upstream.
(The Brits have to drive on the wrong side of the road because the steering wheels are on the wrong side of their cars. Since most boats have the steering wheel in the center, I don’t know what their excuse is.) :)
Some small boats in SS have water jet or other azimuthing drives, and lose steering when power is cut.
Marty
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Hi MV Smith,
All ships drive on the Starboard Side in the UK..as in the rest of the world. The colour of the bouys change going from system B ( The Americas and parts of the Far East) and System A (rest of the world), but the shape of the buoys stay the same. ie Can Shape Port hand marks (Red in A and Green in B) and the Stbd Marks are cone shape. (Green in A and Red in B). ::)
I was told the reason for the differeance is because in the USA there are more river passages made then in the open water....Not sure if thats true but sort of sounds right!
:D
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Funny how the Americans think we Brits are wrong, we sit on the RIGHT side when driving not the wrong side! The American system (IALA-B) is just because they have to be different!!!! IALA-A has red buoys on the port side to match the red sidelights on the port side. I thought EVERYONE knew that. ::) ;) Even the nomenclature tells the story!!! IALA-A:-International Association of Lighthouse Authorities- Advanced!!!
IALA-B:- .. .. .. .. .. - Backward!!! ;) ;) ;)
Also we Brits drive on the right side so we can more easily make rude signs to other drivers with our right hands!!! :o :-*
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Thank you all for straightening me out the international buoy system. I have only sailed in Canada and the USA on the Great Lakes.
When you get the small power boat engine maneuvering and the rudder that still has effect when the vessel is still moving sorted out, let me know.
I was traveling around New York and other areas on the jet boat and the scenery is very good and solid. You guys did a great job there.
I tried Ship Sim 2008 on my lap top which runs at 3.2GHz and 1 GB ram. It barely runs with lines for water so I had to removed it. I suspect the ram is too small and the video card is inadequate. I can easily see why some people with slower computers are having problems. My main computer is a very fast gamer machine I just finished putting together and the performance difference is enormous.
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Hello Almack,
Just another question. You don't sail anymore? And on what kind of ship did you sail on the Great Lakes?
I am a inland-skipper myself, in Europe, but i'm interested in Great Lakes-shipping for a longer time now.
On a Dutch shipping-forum, a Dutch man living in Canada has a thread, bringing news from the Lakes, including nice pictures. :) I follow this thread like a newspaper, and i gained interest in the Great Lakes and the ships who sail there.
Regards,
Ed
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Hang on chaps... Traddles...
It sounds like our bouy system is too similar to Europe and USA... We must be seen to e akward and have our own dedicated system, (completely incomprehensible if possible). :D
Stu
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Also we Brits drive on the right side so we can more easily make rude signs to other drivers with our right hands!!! :o :-*
We drive from the left side because it is less awkward for a right-handed shooter to fire through either window without sticking his arm out and risking injury. ;D
I think that, had our Northern neighbors adopted IALA-A, the St. Lawrence Seaway would be a much more interesting place. ::)
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The silliest thing is that I am left handed, couldn't fire a gun right handed or make naughty signs! I do though enjoy the light hearted banter on this forum, at my age, life is becoming too short to be serious about many things any more. :P ;) ::)
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Hang on chaps... Traddles...
It sounds like our bouy system is too similar to Europe and USA... We must be seen to e akward and have our own dedicated system, (completely incomprehensible if possible). :D
Stu
I should think that a people who could invent cricket could come up with something meeting that requirement. :)
Marty
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Ed, you picked a great ship to model on the Great Lakes. The Edward L Ryerson is one of the most expensive ships ever built. As a lake freighter she is the best looking Great Lakes freighter ever built and I understand the builder spared no expense in the crew quarters.
I owned and sailed mostly small sail and power boats up to 10 meters around Lake Huron, St. Clair River and Lake, Detroit River and Lake Erie area. The boating stopped when the kids went to college. I will likely never use another power boat due to high fuel costs but sail is a possibility
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I should think that a people who could invent cricket could come up with something meeting that requirement. :)
Marty
Hi mv,
What is that game in America, I think it's some form of rounders such as schoolgirls play here!!!!! :P
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Hi mv,
What is that game in America, I think it's some form of rounders such as schoolgirls play here!!!!! :P
You must mean Rugby. :)
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Hi Marty,
Do you mean that game you Americans play wearing armour and crash helmets so the players don't get hurt? ::) ;D
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Ed, you picked a great ship to model on the Great Lakes. The Edward L Ryerson is one of the most expensive ships ever built. As a lake freighter she is the best looking Great Lakes freighter ever built and I understand the builder spared no expense in the crew quarters.
I owned and sailed mostly small sail and power boats up to 10 meters around Lake Huron, St. Clair River and Lake, Detroit River and Lake Erie area. The boating stopped when the kids went to college. I will likely never use another power boat due to high fuel costs but sail is a possibility
Yep, the Edward L. Ryerson is the best looking and most expensive Laker ever. ;D
I've read an article about her, stating that there wasn't spared on anything on that ship. She's unique. :)
So you sailed the Lakes for hobby! Nothing wrong with that! You've made more miles on the Lakes then me. ;)
But i'm planning to come to the Lakes in the future, i wan't to see it with me own yes, the ships and the lot! 8)
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Good point, Traddles.
The fact that Brits play without helmets probably explains a lot. ;D
Marty
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Yep, the Edward L. Ryerson is the best looking and most expensive Laker ever. ;D
I've read an article about her, stating that there wasn't spared on anything on that ship. She's unique. :)
So you sailed the Lakes for hobby! Nothing wrong with that! You've made more miles on the Lakes then me. ;)
But i'm planning to come to the Lakes in the future, i wan't to see it with me own yes, the ships and the lot! 8)
I sport fish a couple of the Great Lakes. Mostly Lake Michigan for Salmon or Lake Trout and a couple trips to Lake Erie for Walleyes.
Russ
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Hi again Marty,
Are you really saying we're all nuts!!! Well I can only speak for myself and in that case you're dead right! :'( ;)
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I think that, had our Northern neighbors adopted IALA-A, the St. Lawrence Seaway would be a much more interesting place. ::)
Hi Marty,
I've just caught on to your comment, could have been fun with green buoys on BOTH sides of the seaway!! Wow :o :o :P
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Hello Russ,
Very nice to know, more people are formilliar with the Lakes! :D
It would be nice to sail the Lakes with my own ship, ofcourse, but how would i get it there? And i don't think, the Coast Guard would be pleased to see me and my "little" vessel over there. ;D
Oh, and Traddles, your silly.
:D ;)
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Well I can only speak for myself and in that case you're dead right! :'( ;)
Actually I did say it myself. When I was teaching seafarers I found a bit of silliness worked wonders! ::)
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Actually I did say it myself. When I was teaching seafarers I found a bit of silliness worked wonders! ::)
;D Well, trust me, your not the only one. :P ;)
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I should think that a people who could invent cricket could come up with something meeting that requirement. :)
Marty
We did... It's called Polo!
Stu
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You don’t need to understand Polo, as long as your horse does. :)
Ramapo Marty
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Hi again Marty,
Are you really saying we're all nuts!!! Well I can only speak for myself and in that case you're dead right! :'( ;)
I don't know. I think you are speaking for a LOT of people here... ;)
Stu
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Russ, I also spent many years freezing my butt off in March and April out on Lake Huron tracking down Salmon. That's one of the reasons I got bigger boats. Rough water when it is snowing, windy and water temperatures of 1C to 5C makes you tend to operate on the cautious side. We ran into a wall of ice one day when the north wind was blowing it down the lake. Also it was before GPS and Loran C so we did a lot of dead reckoning in the fog. I almost ran into the side of a lake freighter one day in the fog as we were running a compass course for home 25 miles out in the lake. What are the chances of that happening? Some days it was very warm and some days it wasn’t. You can likely relate to this.
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Are you using GPS now? It's great. I too have spent many hours over the years making for home at a snails pace in the fog using the compass and depth gauge. Not that the GPS helps you go faster as you still have to maintain constant watch for other boats but it's great for plotting and maintaining your course and knowing your exact location.
March has never been a very popular month for boating around here but it used to be the month for the annual smelt run. The walls of the harbor would be lined with dipnetters and the beaches lined with seiners myself included. In the last decade the smelt have all but disappeared along with most of the lake perch.
Russ
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Hi all,
Just wanted to correct a couple of things.
1) All twin screw vessels can turn on the spot, I can manoeurve my ferry at 186m long in real life on the spot with the twin screw, you don't need a bowthruster either
2) The discussion on the Buoyage - this is an old one. Two regions, Region A and Region B. Both regions use the same Cardinal marks, special marks, isolated danger marks and safe water marks. The difference occurs using lateral marks, ie the Port and Starboard channel markers. I was taught when I was Officer cadet, the easiest way (Apologies in advance :-\) - The British System (A) is designed for Vessels returning safely home, Region B (America) is for vessel's leaving as they never expected them to return, hehehe. http://www.deck-officer.info/buoyage/ialamap.jpg (http://www.deck-officer.info/buoyage/ialamap.jpg) shows the regions.
Oh by the way it is not that the Brits drive on the wrong side of the road either - because Rule 9 on Narrow Channels states that all vessels will keep to the Starboard side of the channel when entering and leaving port.
Cheers
Steve
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Steve,
At California Maritime Academy, where bunk-making is a two-semester course, cadets are taught the mnemonic: Red Right Returning. Clearly, if the faculty did not think that they would have much use for that, the time would have been devoted to an extra week on chronometer winding. :)
On driving in channel, I never claimed you drove on the wrong side, I pointed out that most ships have the wheel in the center, so there was no excuse for British eccentricity there. :)
Regards,
Marty
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Hi Marty,
Thanks for that response, it got me thinking, so I did so looking around the net. It seems that America didn't have a standardised buoyage system until 1848 (1852 Lighthouse Board), approx 200 years after the UK established their's in 1594 using Trinity House. Up until this 1848 it seems that most US ports had there own buoys.
I guess we'll never know why it has occured, one of those oddities in History, perhaps it is the same reason why we drie on the left and you on the right lol ;D
Cheers
Steve
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Steve,
Considering it took less than a century from our founding to get our act together, I don’t think that was too bad.
The principle need for buoyage was on the Mississippi and her tributaries in early days. Perhaps the first buoy was placed on a navigation hazard on the East bank and was, naturally, painted red by someone not familiar IALA-A. :)
My other theory is that it was done to confuse the Brits if they ever sailed upriver to burn St. Louis. :)
Our convention for auto traffic probably followed riverboat convention, which came first.
Marty
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Well i heard a rumour about the driving bit.. ::)
The Romans started "driving" (carts and stuff) on the left of a road and brought that to all countries that they occupied...It apparently stayed like that until Bonapart came to power in France and made evryone change all the countires he had occupied to drive on the right! Of course us Brits, fighting the French and all kept our left side drivinf bit. Of course all countries with French influence alsochanged to right hand side to confuse the "dastardly English Roast Beef" should they inviade... ???
as i said not sure if its true or not, but its what I heard!! ;D
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I heard something like that- Boneyparts was left handed and would always march past his soldiers on the right to salute them. Or something like that.
I think we British need to be even more akward and drive on both sides in no predictable pattern.
EDIT: Sorry. I've just realised. We do.
Stu
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You must have met my wife on the road Stu ;D
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You must have met my wife on the road Stu ;D
LOL, you are a brave man indeed, saying something like that :D
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I think this thread is drifting away from the original subject - let's stick to the subject, or as the Fench say:
revenons a nos moutons.
Some small boats have no rudder at all, they are controlled by changing the direction of the propellors. In Dutch: hek drive - what is the English name for it? So, you can't steer when the engines are idle. The small vessels in ShipSim seem to be of that kind.
When the rudder is placed behind the propellor, its effect is much weaker with no power or in reverse.
I have no experience with really large vessels, but in ShipSim I have no problems maneuvering both small and large vessels. Behaviour seems quite realistic to me. Besides, the really big ships in ShipSim are single engine (except the Titanic). So, what is actually the problem?
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Besides, the really big ships in ShipSim are single engine (except the Titanic). So, what is actually the problem?
Pride of Rotterdam...?
Stu
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Pride of Rotterdam - indeed. I stay corrected. 50% of the big ships are single engine.
Now I've seen the problem! To rotate the "Arie Visser" in place, give 100% reverse on one engine, 80% forward on the other. It stays exectly in place. Forward thrust is apparently more effective. If you give 100% on both engines, the boat will describe a circle with a radius more than one ship length.
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That's good. Originally, the thrust 100% astern was the same as 100% ahead. Which we were told by professional sailors was wrong. I must admit I didn't realise it was now correct.
Stu